Is Eating Meat Moral?

Carnivores vs Vegans: What is better?

Dear Classical Wisdom Reader,

I didn’t eat any meat until I was 18. My parents weren’t part of a cult or hippies or anything like that... nor did I have an overly virtuous moral position, a teenager with a cause. While we had a lot of pets growing up, it was mostly because I was just picky. I thought it was too chewy and over time, the label of vegetarian became so infused with my identity it was hard to shake. 

You have to remember, of course, this was before vegetarianism was the ‘thing’ it is today. I didn’t know a single other veggo. At McDonalds I could eat the buns and fries. That was it. Most restaurants had -maybe- one non-meat option, if any at all. I was outright laughed at when I lived in foreign countries (at least, it was pretty understandable in Kazakhstan...being a nomadic culture and all). 

I was only able to explore my culinary options once I went to college and just... didn’t tell anyone. Nonetheless, by eschewing meat, along with beans and other healthy items, I ended up much shorter than anyone else in my family (including my depression era grandmothers) and I’m scrawny to a fault. So, I won’t lie, my relationship with meat is a little ‘complicated’. 

Perhaps as such, it’s hard for me to be unbiased on this debate - one that has seemingly increased greatly in the last few decades, that of the morality of eating meat. 

I thought about this not too long ago when speaking with Massimo Pigliucci, who has been very vocal about his thoughts on whether or not we should consume those who fly, trot or slither. We think we are so ‘moral’ now, he contended, but perhaps in a 100 years our descendants will look at us as horribly bestial for eating animals. 

The interesting thing, of course and as always in these humble pages, is that this isn’t a NEW debate. Nope, not at all. The ancients the world over also discussed the morality of eating animals with different conclusions. 

Not surprising to anyone with any contact or basic knowledge of the subcontinent is that the first evidence of vegetarianism is found in the east. Starting in the 9th century BCE, Parshwanatha and Mahavira, the 23rd and 24th tirthankaras in Jainism, respectively, revived and advocated ahimsa, the ancient Indian principle of nonviolence which applies to all living beings. Jainism, being distinctly the most peaceful religion in the world, is not the only belief system that requires vegetarianism. The ancient Indian work of Tirukkural, dated before 5th century CE, explicitly and unambiguously emphasizes shunning meat and non-killing as a common man's virtue. 

Moving westward to the Hellenes, the Orphics, a popular and mysterious religious movement which spread in Greece around the 6th century BC, also practiced and promoted vegetarianism. They attempted to live an ascetic life free of spiritual contamination, which also famously excluded those icky broad beans (according to them). 

At this point there are no doubt many of you thinking of the most famous ancient vegetarian of them all: Pythagoras! 

(Indeed, prior to the coinage of the word "vegetarianism", vegetarians were referred to in English as "Pythagoreans"). Unfortunately, Pythagoras was also recorded as eating meat for sacrificial reasons, but Eudoxus of Cnidus (c. 400-350 BC), a student of Plato, wrote that,

“Pythagoras was distinguished by such purity and so avoided killing and killers that he not only abstained from animal foods, but even kept his distance from cooks and hunters.”

His later portrayal as a strict vegetarian, thanks to Ovid, has preserved this version of Pythagoras… that and his later followers continued this way of living for centuries on. 

Vegetarianism was also practiced about six centuries later (30 BCE–50 CE) in the northern Thracian region by the Moesi tribe (modern day Serbia and Bulgaria), feeding themselves on honey, milk, and cheese.

So with our very brief (and by no means exhaustive) tour of the ancient world of vegetarianism concluded, let’s get back to our debate at hand... should we... or should we not eat meat? 

While this is an ethical question, about the value of an animal’s life, it is also a fertile battle ground for cultural wars that are occurring now - especially with regards to sustainability, climate change, population growth, etc. Something, perhaps, more uniquely modern. 

So where does this leave us, dear reader? Should we eat meat? Is it moral? 

As always, you can reply to this email or write to me directly at [email protected] 

As for today’s mailbag, we have excellent and wide ranging responses as to how to handle the snakes in the grass... figuratively, not literally.... As well as a few replies to our recent Stoicism and Buddhism article (which some of you may have noticed had quite a healthy comment section!) 

Enjoy,

Kind Regards,Anya Leonard

Founder and DirectorClassical Wisdom and Classical Wisdom Kids

Mailbag: 

Dear Anya,

This topic has been on my mind quite a lot lately, as snakes keep creeping into my grass. 

A theme I notice:

Jesus advises us to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Sun Tzu recommends governing the state by being straightforward and waging war by being crafty.

Aristotle categorizes friendships according to their telos: pleasure, utility, or virtue. The first two can be had by nearly anyone. Even fellow thieves can have a “friendship” of utility. Yet such “friendships” are short-lived and end when the mutual advantage ends. Virtuous friendships require virtuous people. They are long lasting because virtue is solid and durable. 

Plato categorized the soul into the reasoning, spirited, and appetitive parts. If the right reason does not govern, one will have an unbalanced soul (and polis, scaling up). 

In the Melian Dialogue: the strong do as they will; the weak do as they must. 

The theme I see here is that with those we can trust, we can reveal a lot of ourselves and act with sincerity. Power is a non issue; friends do not seek to overpower us. With those we cannot trust: we must avoid, deceive, or fight back. The reason is precisely that they seek to dominate us. We must prevent them from forcing us to carry out their wills. 

I used to think snakes would stay on their sides of the grass. When you have an innocent heart lacking in deception, it’s hard to read deception and power-mongering into another’s mind. It’s like trying to see red when color blind. 

This is one reason literature is so valuable. It can help us peer into the minds of villains, and understand them. I did not read much literature when young. I wish I had. It might have made it easier to recognize snakes in real life.

Pondering,

Angela

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Sounds like the DC theatre scene.....

Robert M

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I’m from Venezuela and yearly 800 to 1,000 people die of snake bites. I’ve learned since childhood that if you see a snake, kill it. Period.

J.J. F.

Anya,

Snakes analyze their victims and employ a strategy of deception based on that analysis.

They know our weaknesses better than WE do.

So…analyze their tactics; they are “playing into” characteristics of ours that make us vulnerable.

Their tactics often resemble a seduction – of the mind – into their version of reality.

What words/actions do they do that cause us to deny our own sense of reality and accept the picture that they paint?

It is hard to see what they are doing when the lens of our rose-colored glasses are so compelling, we have to respond as we normally WOULDN’T to “see through” them and see them as they are.

The snake takes steps to make sure that we don’t provide a reality “check” and we are “bad” and will “destroy” our relationship/family if we DO.

Yet that is exactly what we need to do in order to avoid being victimized.

Mel 

Actually the best way in the world to deal with a snake in the grass… someone you just…..

Simple: Love them out of your life.

Evil snakes are on their best game when you return tit for tat; when you bite back. However, the best thing is to disarm them with love.

That doesn’t mean you let them walk all over you… call them out….. “I need to ask you a really big favor…. If you want to call me a sob, or a jerk… feel free just do it to my face… really cuts down on unproductive office gossiping then.”

And if they respond… “me, I never”

Quickly respond “you didn’t? Oh wow if I were you I would have….” (And then SMILE or just keep walking away to the deer in head like looking snake).

John D W

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Ha! Ha! Firstly, I take exception to including the much maligned animal/reptile “Snake.” It’s a “Western Christian cultural thing” to use them to represent evil, the devil! Throughout our timeless earthly worlds they have represented rebirth, transformation, and immortality: Ra and all creation originated from the many coiled serpent called Amduat; the two entwined serpents on the staff of Asclepius representing medical assistance; and an African symbol of wisdom/fertility; a Nordic symbol of prosperity and fruitfulness; Moses’ bronze snake on a stick as a symbol of healing; and Jesus using the shedding of its skin as a symbol of resurrection.

Now, how to deal with Enemies, Conniving, Manipulative Souls: Simply, live a life worth living by using those things which support life, and avoiding those things which do not. Other such weak creatures will avoid you as if you are a “godly snake” whose soul’s bright reflection will cause them to slink away in terror of their unworthiness of being alive.

Peter Kon

I'm reading Batman and Ethics with a theme of Utilitarianism and Deontology.

Batman nevers kills; consequently, The Joker and others live to kill again and again. Utilitarianism says: do what is best for the majority. Deontology says follow the rules (I know I'm just touching on these ethical decisions.).

If Batman adheres to his values of never taking a life, The Joker keeps killing many others.

Would you address the ethical models of Utilitarianism, Deontology, and Virtue Ethics.

Kygunner

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Hi Anya,

I guess the Pythian priestess at Delphi was the original "snake" in the grass, who would befuddle visitors with her ambiguous answers.

Today we can laugh at these moments in ancient history, and say "what a pithy!"

Sorry for sounding a bit like Monty Python - whose name suggests "snakes from the mountains"! Were they the snakes driven out of Ireland by St. Patrick?!

Regards,

Denis

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I think the way to deal with snakes is to be as wise, or cunning, as a snake, but be innocent as a dove oneself. Know how to think like a snake, so you can anticipate their moves, but don’t stoop to their level.

Dan Del Monte

In the article you say, comparing Stoicism to Buddhism: "This ideal is so rigid and has such a high bar in Stoicism that ancient philosophers were not sure anyone ever had, or ever could, reach that state, though some have argued that Diogenes of Sinope was perhaps a Sage." Though Zeno might have been influenced by Diogenes, Zeno was not a cynic from my perspective, maybe even the opposite. I could be wrong, but this is a bit of a flawed analogy. 

As Buddhism was a strong reaction to the oppressiveness of Hindu religion, the New Testament was an equally strong reaction to the oppressiveness of Judaic law. Can any of this be compared to Stoicism? Yes, maybe in the world of psychology, in that we are all denying death is some way. 

Herman. H, San Francisco 

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Hello,

I am writing because there seems to be a trend of Classicists taking on other cultures but, unfortunately, scholars of ancient Greek do not necessarily have access to other ancient languages (besides Latin). Obviously, Classicists would object if anyone wrote about Plato or other philosophers without being able to read ancient Greek. I hope you are applying the same standards to other cultural traditions, and that someone writing about Buddhism for your blog will actually be reading the relevant ancient texts in their original languages. 

Arti M, Ph.D.

[Anya’s note: What do you think dear readers? Can others wade in without knowledge of the original text’s languages? Can we outsource translation to experts? Or is it necessary to have a sufficient  command of ancient words? Comment below!]